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Forum » General Discussion » Casino Operators and the UKGC Login or Register to reply. Viewing 15 Posts - 1 through 15. (15 of 15) 1
03/08/2020 at 18:55 1 0 #6797 pokersmasher
Posts: 126 User

There are a fair few casinos out there however there are many that fall under the same licence such White Hat Gaming where the skins devolve a lot of the promotional drives, verification procedures and loyalty management to a centrally administered section. This is not uncommon with franchises as it allows the operators to reduce cost and get on with building their franchise.

The recently suspended Genesis Global Ltd operations were all suspended at the same time and effectively closed their doors to UK players pending a wider decision on the group's operations in the UK. Reading between the lines it appears that there has been some sort of question mark over the suitability of the people operating/holding the core licence. Whether this suspension is lifted or not  is as yet unknown. Imagine that you are a responsible operator and you get the plug pulled out simply because a member of the board has a dodgy past undisclosed to the UKGC. There are a fair few rogues in this trade. Even companies listed on the UK stock market such as 888 or Playtech have had serious questions raised over their personnel in the past and the CEO of GVC, who operate Party, resigned in a hurry recently probably in order to avoid a scandal.

In reality the new kids on the block such as WHG appear to operate more efficiently that the old guard such as William Hill or Coral who appear far more able to mess up on compliance issues. Added to that there are questionable operators and companies who prey on vulnerable characters with only limited sanction. I suspect that even the larger fines meted out to gambling companies are seen as a cost of doing business much like court awards against the tabloids. Over the piece they earn more than they lose.

The  first stage of playing online should be handled by the UKGC and the creation of a player ID. Without this player ID being used no bets should be permitted at any UK casino and/or gambling establishment. The UKGC would therefore be in control of identity checks and mandatory spending controls across all licensed casinos within a given time interval. Deposits and Withdrawals would require to be completed within 4 hours or 16 hours if crossing hours outside normal working hours.

Each player would have a UKGC dashboard to show results from gambling in terms of:-

Overall net deposits

Time spent

Amount Wagered & Amounts returned to player

Deposits could only be made at preset intervals i.e. the ability to deposit six times in an hour would be blocked and there would be a four hour delay before a deposit would be available for play.

Timeouts would be enforced at hourly intervals at say 55 minutes past the hour like synchronised breaks on poker sites where no wagering could take place and players would be forced to acknowledge playing levels in the prior 55 minutes and agree whether or not they wished to continue.

Gamblers would be classed into categories where appropriate safeguards could be created. This categorisation could be determined by income levels, credit ratings, employment status etc.

A lot of this is akin to the method of joining a bricks and mortar casino prior to all of the rules being relaxed so much. For instance it used to be impossible to pitch up at a casino and join and enter that evening - there was a 24 hour waiting period.

Many people gamble and most do it relatively responsibly. Online gambling is here to stay and in some ways it is more dangerous than the "crack cocaine" FOBT's located so liberally in every bookmaker on every high street where at least  problem gamblers can be seen. How many problem gamblers are able to lose large sums and no-one knows because they use a laptop or mobile phone behing closed doors.

Nobody wants a nanny state and people must largely regulate their own actions and decisions. The fact is though that there are issues with underage gambling,excessive gamling, destruction of family units and massive social costs surrounding addiction. An addiction to gambling is equally as destructive in many ways as alcoholism or drug use. Most people could have a few drinks and not go majorly overboard too often and pay a huge premium to do so. The level of tax on alcohol or cigarettes is frighteningly high and why should gambling really be tax free to consumers.

The UKGC should be expanded, empowered and given really extensive statutory powers to protect consumers and keep casino operators in line. The ISP's would be fined if any non-regulated content could be accessed by UK consumers.

A tiny levy on wagering would easily cover the costs of this. If memory serves me correctly you used to have to pay 9% tax in the bookies and people still paid it to place a bet so if it were set at a level of something miniscule like 0.1% on all online gambling would it not just become the norm.

A proper review and reset of the gambling industry is required and as usual the government is dipsy doodling around the periphery and making no discernible difference to anything.



03/08/2020 at 22:56 0 0 #6801 Weemonk23
Posts: 353 Top Contributor

Well, I had gone to bed to thought i'll check the forum on mobile but now I have the laptop out for this one.  pokersmasher  with another cracking thread.

I agree with the UKGC taking over verification if they could but i don't think it would be feasible.

I don't agree with with centralised player stats. Too hard to collate and they aren't truly representative of a player.

I agree with how many times you can deposit in a set space of time but absolutely do not agree with a 4 hour period between each. It would take away from the enjoyment.

Timeouts should be done in the same way as Leovegas do. After 6 hours of being logged in you are forced out for 45mins.......but....very easy to get around so again not sure it is feasible.

I agree with categories but would rather use it as an affordability assessment the same as if you get finance. Absolutely no to credit checks. I'm not being given credit and I was pissed off when Leovegas said they'd run one on me. Too invasive for gambling.

My view is that everyone who gambles is a problem gambler. Allow me to give my thoughts. Gambling, drinking, smoking, drugs, being a gym fanatic and many more are escapism. Over indulgence in anything is dangerous. None are needed as a necessity in life but they are done from enjoyment, reward from working or socially. 
Everyone who gambles has at one point gone too far - if you tell me different i call bollocks. Same with people who indulge in other escapism's - whatever your chosen poison or vice is. You can see it in streamers for gambling, the chap on the fruity in the pub that's not a one of couple of quid player, anyone in a bookies or arcade or casino. The difference is most people can be sensible and keep things in check. Impossible to protect everyone.

If you tax the industry then I believe regulation will never reach its full potential. As soon as the government get money - as with cigs and alcohol - they'll never want to lose out on it.

Also, if you go too insane with regulation you'll end up with the likes of Casumo who are losing players left and right due to how overboard they have gone with withdrawal verification.

07/08/2020 at 18:18 0 0 #6827 Twenty729
Posts: 7 User

With in the year operators licenses and personal license issued by the gambling commission will be a lot more strict. White Hat Gaming will be a thing of the past. I have got over 20 years in the gambling business and have worked with several large companies in regards to licensing and compliance issues. A lot of the fines issued are for failing to comply with  Social Responsibility issues and not identifying problem with SOW (source of wealth).

Affiliates will be required to be licensed with in the next year. This poses the biggest problem in the gambling industry with the blatant disregard for the laws laid out in several gaming laws including Social Responsibility and LCCP. Websites like this will be required to carry out the same level of ID verification in order to offer there services. 


This may sound like bad news to some but if you care about the services you provide it will not be an issue.

08/08/2020 at 00:41 0 0 #6835 CraigSlots
Posts: 485 Wanker

Twenty729 - 07/08/2020 at 18:18

With in the year operators licenses and personal license issued by the gambling commission will be a lot more strict. White Hat Gaming will be a thing of the past. I have got over 20 years in the gambling business and have worked with several large companies in regards to licensing and compliance issues. A lot of the fines issued are for failing to comply with  Social Responsibility issues and not identifying problem with SOW (source of wealth).

Affiliates will be required to be licensed with in the next year. This poses the biggest problem in the gambling industry with the blatant disregard for the laws laid out in several gaming laws including Social Responsibility and LCCP. Websites like this will be required to carry out the same level of ID verification in order to offer there services. 


This may sound like bad news to some but if you care about the services you provide it will not be an issue.



If we get the tools and permission to carry out checks then we have no issue and welcome it tbh


If they make fees huge and fines ridiculous, then promoting non UKGC licensed casinos will become the norm, and the affiliates will act as a safety barrier for players.


There will also be a huge influx of non-licensed casinos who will be willing to offer a safe place, coming in to the scene. 


Let's hope the UKGC don't hang themself.



09/08/2020 at 19:45 0 0 #6909 Twenty729
Posts: 7 User

You will probably only require a managers license which is about £400 every 5 years.


Accountability will be the main goal of the license. It will give the gambling commission the power to enforce regulation on the affiliates. I also think the way that affiliates get paid will also change. It will be only on signing new players up and not a percentage of the players loss. 

09/08/2020 at 22:40 0 0 #6910 pokersmasher
Posts: 126 User

The methodology of affiliate reward schemes have been around for over half a century in their current form and it is not within the powers of the UKGC to alter commercial agreements unless they can exhibit that it is detrimental. In order to do this the UKGC would have to demonstrate that payments to affiliates paid over time from net losses as opposed to sign up bonuses would cause incremental harm. I think they would be hard pressed to do so.

The payment made by casinos to their affiliates are invisible to consumers and it would have no direct bearing on customer behaviour. The only question would be is whether the ongoing revenue share would influence streamers to attempt to unduly influence customer behaviour.

As with all these things the argument is nuanced and the unintended consequences of a change to the method of payment may actually result in a poorer end result. A streamer who is paid upon sign up would immediately monetise that sign up and have no financial incentive to safeguard or look after the player thereafter.

The cost of the licence, I agree would be minimal, however the ability to revoke the licence would be powerful. If you have been in the industry for all this time you must surely realise how utterly ineffective the UKGC are and that root and branch reform of both the UKGC itself and the wider gambling industry is long overdue. I remain of the view that the ideas outlined in the original post may be the only sensible way forward i.e. UKGC registration for all providers and players through a properly accredited ID scheme administered by HMG.

10/08/2020 at 03:53 0 0 #6913 Privateer
Posts: 11 User

Some great points raised here. I do however think you’re all forgetting one thing- Casinos don’t make their money from responsible gamblers... They make it from the compulsive degenerate addicted type. Putting barriers in place to prevent that customer type would severely impact revunue and probably close a lot of franchises down. 

10/08/2020 at 08:36 0 0 #6915 owentrue
Posts: 1 User


I really agree with everything written above. Frankly speaking, I am a real gambler, and I really love playing different games of chance. I've been playing different games since I was a little kid, and I am doing that till today. I am not addicted, I just like playing poker and slots, this is a very nice way to relieve some stress and have a good time. I am spending a lot of time playing poker on the best gambling platforms from mt-plus.net, and it makes me feel good. Moreover, I earn good money on it, and I am really happy about that! At least I don't waste my time in vein, as I am getting paid

10/08/2020 at 13:21 0 0 #6916 pokersmasher
Posts: 126 User

Privateer - 10/08/2020 at 03:53

Some great points raised here. I do however think you’re all forgetting one thing- Casinos don’t make their money from responsible gamblers... They make it from the compulsive degenerate addicted type. Putting barriers in place to prevent that customer type would severely impact revunue and probably close a lot of franchises down. 

I think that you are not giving credit to all the contributions beforehand. Casinos make money from all gamblers equally over time depending upon the edge of the game involved. The edge on roulette is around 2.7% and for every stake made over time this is their effective edge or margin whether is is from an addicted gambler or not.

The proportion of people who gamble that are addicted or problem gamblers is really very low in overall terms. That is not to belittle the impact of the consequences of addiction for those individuals or their familes and friends but simply to illustrate that the vast majority of people are able to gamble and remain in control.

Whilst casinos  obviously do make money from problem gamblers they would much prefer to make money from the ordinary gamblers who they are able to entertain, obtain their margin, and expect to revisit without any future repercussions or complaints. I am sure that any casino manager will tell you that the problem gamblers create all of the hassle,take up the most resouces, and offer scant reward for the effort required to look after them.

Casinos and other gambling establishments are regulated, poorly in my own opinion, yet even that poorly regulated environment is miles better than an unregulated environment. People will always gamble and any move to close down or restrict regulated businesses may result in routing players to a far more dangerous option.

Placing as many barriers and safeguards in the path of problem gamblers is of course the right thing to do and I would imagine that you would not find even one dissenting voice surrounding this even on a gambling forum.

Proper regulation is about improving the whole enterprise of both the gambers and the providers. The weakest providers would be forced out by being unable to comply with regulations or by market forces as the industry evolves. Personally, the regulation that allowed every bookmakers to place four FOBT's in their sites on so many streets in the UK was monumentally wrong. These machines were invariably located in areas with socio economic groups where the negative impact is likely to be felt the most. The bookmakers, household names and large FTSE companies, perpetrated a cash and grab on some of the poorest and most deprived areas of the UK. The bookmakers' sites became little more than glorified amusement arcades with sky high stakes.

To say that the franchised casinos are any worse than this requires a bit of consideration and I am just not sure it would be true.

11/08/2020 at 05:49 0 0 #6922 Privateer
Posts: 11 User

pokersmasher - 10/08/2020 at 13:21

Privateer - 10/08/2020 at 03:53

Some great points raised here. I do however think you’re all forgetting one thing- Casinos don’t make their money from responsible gamblers... They make it from the compulsive degenerate addicted type. Putting barriers in place to prevent that customer type would severely impact revunue and probably close a lot of franchises down. 

I think that you are not giving credit to all the contributions beforehand. Casinos make money from all gamblers equally over time depending upon the edge of the game involved. The edge on roulette is around 2.7% and for every stake made over time this is their effective edge or margin whether is is from an addicted gambler or not.

The proportion of people who gamble that are addicted or problem gamblers is really very low in overall terms. That is not to belittle the impact of the consequences of addiction for those individuals or their familes and friends but simply to illustrate that the vast majority of people are able to gamble and remain in control.

Whilst casinos  obviously do make money from problem gamblers they would much prefer to make money from the ordinary gamblers who they are able to entertain, obtain their margin, and expect to revisit without any future repercussions or complaints. I am sure that any casino manager will tell you that the problem gamblers create all of the hassle,take up the most resouces, and offer scant reward for the effort required to look after them.

Casinos and other gambling establishments are regulated, poorly in my own opinion, yet even that poorly regulated environment is miles better than an unregulated environment. People will always gamble and any move to close down or restrict regulated businesses may result in routing players to a far more dangerous option.

Placing as many barriers and safeguards in the path of problem gamblers is of course the right thing to do and I would imagine that you would not find even one dissenting voice surrounding this even on a gambling forum.

Proper regulation is about improving the whole enterprise of both the gambers and the providers. The weakest providers would be forced out by being unable to comply with regulations or by market forces as the industry evolves. Personally, the regulation that allowed every bookmakers to place four FOBT's in their sites on so many streets in the UK was monumentally wrong. These machines were invariably located in areas with socio economic groups where the negative impact is likely to be felt the most. The bookmakers, household names and large FTSE companies, perpetrated a cash and grab on some of the poorest and most deprived areas of the UK. The bookmakers' sites became little more than glorified amusement arcades with sky high stakes.

To say that the franchised casinos are any worse than this requires a bit of consideration and I am just not sure it would be true.

Totally agree with your thought process and idea around regulation changes. It’s long overdue and with tech as advanced as it is nowadays it is possible. I just can’t ever see it happening unfortunately. The UKGC have been awful in the UK especially, along with dated laws around online gambling by government. They’ve only stepped up things recently in light of all the pressure regarding lock-down online gambling as land-based wasn’t possible. I like your idea of providing entertainment but the main goal is to take Money from customers with “entertainment” as a front. I appreciate everything you say and your comments are well received. 
As for high street bookies they don’t accept bets from informed gamblers, you can only play there if you are a gambler and lose, FOBT’s are also still a massive problem on £2 stake stylishly and slickly designed to take money from the poorest in the land .

05/11/2020 at 21:35 0 0 #7506 pokersmasher
Posts: 126 User

This thread has been bumped up in relation to the thread about maximum loss limits of £100 per month - please refer to the posters' comments above.

The ineptitude of the UKGC never ceases to amaze me and this appears to be nothing short of lunacy.

Firstly, whichever study they rely on has been written with such a skewed viewpoint that the findings are divorced from reality. The proposal appears to adopt a stance towards a "solution" that is unworkable, inequitable and the unintended consequences would be to route gambling to unlicensed providers.

Secondly, this is akin to saying to all customers of a pub that you can only have a drink up to a limit well below what they would like and well below their tolerances and capabilities.

Thirdly, the release of this information into the public domain will cause shockwaves in the gambling industry and create uncertainty needlessly.

I had posted previously about what the UKGC need to do to attempt properly manage gambling issues in online casinos and it is both practical and sensible. The overriding issue is that they do not have the capability to deliver it. They will stick to attempting to apply sticking plasters to a gushing wound until the patient dies. My ideas may be difficult to implement they are nonethless in my view the only practical solution.

15/01/2021 at 12:53 0 0 #8247 Weemonk23
Posts: 353 Top Contributor

Holy shit  Lawmalsh  

i just tried and deposited £10. I withdrew £99,069 5 mins later. 

Because of your amazing knowledge and recommendation I'm richer than i have been.

I feel it is only right to share some of this with you. Please DM your name, address and banking details so i can say thanks

15/01/2021 at 14:36 0 0 #8248 superdavey
Posts: 564 Mod

I've deleted the message, any links posted in future will lead to a ban. 

15/01/2021 at 15:41 0 0 #8249 Weemonk23
Posts: 353 Top Contributor

Don't mess with  superdavey  . He had the power,  he ain't afraid to use it.

15/01/2021 at 17:39 0 0 #8250 superdavey
Posts: 564 Mod

Weemonk23 - 15/01/2021 at 15:41

Don't mess with  superdavey  . He had the power,  he ain't afraid to use it.

😂😘

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